EMAIL WITH BOB DEWAAY - PASTOR OF TWIN CITY FELLOWSHIP

INTACT - IS EXACTLY ORIGINAL

From: Robert Begnaud [mailto:trihvac@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:24 PM
To: Bob DeWaay
Subject: Pastoral Malpractice and the Visible Church

Hello Bob, Robert Begnaud here,

Just thought it would be a good idea to send you my thoughts after reading your article entitled "Pastoral Malpractice and the Visible Church ". I realize that this article was written about a year ago, hope it is ok that I bring it up.

First let me say that I have been reading the Bible all my life, from my youth, I can assure you that my views are not the result of "sloppy exegesis", but a developing faith in the Lord Jesus who is the savior of my soul. And let me say that I am not a Rick Warren supporter, what little I have heard from him turns my stomach! Simple fact is, if I might sound proud for a minute, I have forgotten more about the Bible than most people know. Not proud at all, I assure you!

In the first paragraph of your article you compare saving bodies with saving souls. You said:

"But consider this: The doctor who treats a body is dealing with something that is merely temporal. In a lesser-to-greater argument Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). If, as the Scriptures assure us, our souls are more important than our bodies, why do people look to premier doctors to diagnose and treat their physical conditions but select a pastor who sidesteps truth when it comes to their eternal souls?"

I agree that no one should ignore the truth when teaching about salvation. However, your comparison with being a medical doctor in the interest of saving the body and being a "trained spiritual doctor", using the "tools" of "exegesis" in the interest of saving the soul, is fatally flawed and biblically unsound. You later on in the article claim:

" I have assumed in Warren's case that he indeed has the tools to perform sound exegesis. Some of the other leaders of large congregations-Bill Hybels, Robert Schuller, or Joel Osteen-likely are capable of doing sound Biblical exegesis and correctly applying the Bible to the lives of those who attend their churches. But sadly they often do not use sound exegesis-or even use the Bible as the main source of their messages. Never before in our history have we possessed better "diagnostic tools" to help us study the Bible. For example, the Logos Bible Software makes it possible for any English-speaking person to dig deeply into the meaning of Biblical passages. Why aren't more pastors using these "tools"?"

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be claiming that using the "tools" of "exegesis" is all that is needed in the case of these unbelieving servants of darkness? The problem is rooted in a lack of "training"? You are saying, if they just would use their "tools" properly that all would be well? I have a saying that I would like to aquaint you with:

"The heresy of "the prosperity gospel" makes Jesus a rich man and the heresy of "the higher education gospel" makes Jesus a college professor; these two heresies are brothers, in that neither works for the poor of this world, and God favors the poor!" Only in America and Western countries!

Now let me just give you a few passages that I can assure you I am not sloppy with my "exegesis" of at all! You know where these scriptures are, they are simple clear holy writ, I not going to lengthen this post with the locations that everyone knows.

David said "the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul, the testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple"

Isaiah said "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price,

Jesus said "I thank you father that you have hid your truth from those who are wise in this world and delivered in unto babes, for so it seems good in thy sight"

Jesus said "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst"

The Apostle Paul said " For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man''s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God"

The Apostle Paul said "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Bob DeWaay, I plead with you to teach the salvation that comes by faith alone, that those you teach may know him in the power of his resurrection, not leaning on their education or ability to "exegete", but a faith where Jesus and him alone is the captain of their salvation!

One more note: Have you heard yet, the highly educated John McArthur, has now been exposed as a purpose driven unbeliever, who doesn't even know when he was saved? You have heard of John Coleman, right, no doubt one of your own, who teaches philosophy at a Christian College? One of your own that has now made plain this fact about John McArthur! How's that salvation through higher education coming along? You can find seven expose audios on McArthur at Pastor John Coleman's Site at the bottom of the page, the most important would be the Bob Johnson interview , this interview has four parts, this is the first one.

What say you?

Sincerely,

Robert Begnaud

http://thestraightwaychurch.org

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob DeWaay

To: 'Robert Begnaud'

Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:06 PM

Subject: RE: Pastoral Malpractice and the Visible Church

Robert,

Thanks for your comments.

I think you make a category error by using passages about the simplicity and clarity of the Bible and gospel to discredit scholarly study. There is no either/or decision to be made. We can teach a clear gospel and be well educated in the use of the Biblical languages. The goal of exegesis is to understand the Holy Spirit inspired Biblical author''s meaning. Then understanding it we can apply it. The Bible commends elders who labor hard in word and doctrine. I fail to see why urging pastors/elders to do that is bad.

If you go here: http://www.twincityfellowship.com/ and click on the link just below the picture ""How can I know that I am saved"" you can see how I present the gospel.

The article was simply making an analogy to get pastors to do their job of feeding Jesus'' sheep and to correctly interpret the Bible. If you do not like the analogy you are free to disregard it. But pastors are required to be diligent in their studies of the Bible, higher education or none.

In Christ,

Bob DeWaay

From: Robert Begnaud [mailto:trihvac@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:00 PM
To: Bob DeWaay
Subject: Re: Pastoral Malpractice and the Visible Church

Bob,

Thanks for your reply,

None of the scriptures that I mentioned in the original post had anything to do with the simplicity and clarity of scriptures. Please explain to me, which scriptures that I mentioned have anything to do with the simplicity and clairity of scripture? Bob, please understand, this is not attack Bob day, I do have some things to say and I hope you will hear me out. Maybe you are just busy and have not carefully considered my original post, I hope you will. You said: "The goal of exegesis is to understand the Holy Spirit inspired Biblical author''s meaning. Then understanding it we can apply it." This is patently not true, let me explain:

We both speak english, right? We can began to write to each other and sooner or later our imaginations will take a toll and we will have a major misunderstanding. Haven't you experienced that? I sure have, and all the time! Just because we can read english in a culture that we both understand to one degree or another, doesn't mean that we will understand each other without problems. Now you claim that you can understand someone who spoke a different language and was from a different culture, thousands of years apart, a culture that you must trust the history books to convey? You think that you will understand them just because you study the original language? I guarrantee that we won't understand each other, speaking the same language and living in the same country, I wonder how you expect by some method of higher leaning "hermenutical exegesis" to understand what was written thousands of years ago, when I know for sure that you cannot understand me, who lives a few states away! I tell you Bob, listen to the wisdom that I have, the only way to eliminate this potential problem is for you to know me personally; that is the only way that you will understand me correctly, is to know me! The same thing is true with the Holy Spirit, which is the testifier of Jesus.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1Jo 2:27 av)

Now we can discuss what it means to receive the "anointing" as mentioned in the above scripture, but you cannot deny that it is the anointing that teaches us, just as this scripture declares. Your exortation to servants of darkness that they can understand scriptures, living truth, if they will but faithfully study and faithfully teach, removes from them a major reason of their need to repent. Lev 26 below lays out the recipe for repentance that God requires, who never changes!

"If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:" (Le 26:40-41 av)

1) They have to confess their sins

2) They have to confess their father's sins

3) They have to confess that God has walked contrary to them. (note: they cannot confess that they can understand scriptures through their own study!)

4) Their hearts must become circumcised and humbled.

5) They must accept the punishment of their iniquity.

Bob, it is only God's mercy and favor that can lead us to truth, it is not about study or the "spiritual disciplines" as some put it, but the mercy and grace of God. It is not I that live but Christ, I can do all things through Christ alone and without him I can do nothing and that includes laboring for the meat that endures. Let all men be liars and let no flesh glory in his prescence!

I did listen to your short presentation, we need to speak as the oracles of God and not as the oracles of "hermenutical exegesis", the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. All we can do with our own efforts is study letters, it takes the Spirit to give life!

Thanks for putting up with me!

Sincerely

Robert Begnaud

LAST EXCHANGE (BOB DEWAAY'S WORDS IN BLUE)

Thanks for your reply Bob, I think it would be helpful to reply to each of your points below.

You Said:

We do have a serious disagreement. The position you espouse is the very one I heard in Chicago at an Emergent conference. They claim that the Holy Spirit is telling them what the Bible means apart from the historical grammatical means of understanding the text.

Here is the problem: anyone can claim the Holy Spirit told them a particular passage means anything. The Emergent people claimed that the Holy Spirit told them that the Bible teaches universalism (that everyone will be saved). They don''t need a particular text that says that because the Holy Spirit they say is leading them to Jesus, and Jesus is love and the Jesus they know would not send anyone to hell. That is the same message I heard in the liberal Methodist church of my youth.

Reply: I am not an Emergent or a liberal and I am not teaching anything that I cannot show in plain english all over the written word. Just because there are people who have a wrong spirit and therefore believe lies, does not mean that there is not a right Spirit. You use your "historical grammatical means of understanding the text" to over-through the scriptures that you do not want to receive. Yet there are a thousands of different people out there that make the same claim that you make and disagree with you on critical issues about, salvation, God, mercy vs judgement, bible prophecy, calvinism vs arminianism, baby baptism, sacraments, the list goes on and on, so don't tell me about those who have a wrong spirit, we know that no lie is of the truth and from a right spirit! The scriptures report "what knows the things of man but the spirit of man and what knows the things of God but the Spirit of God" If you want to find out whether I have a right spirit or not, it will take time and pateince, because the written word will back it up, unless you just discount what you don't want to receive and blame it on "exegesis"!

You Said:

If the Bible''s meaning is not discernable through careful exegesis, then we are in a spiritual free for all.

Reply: The problem is found here in your very words, you don't like what you cannot control, watch out for that "spiritual free for all". Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty and Order; those who are lead by the Spirit of God, the same are the Sons of God.

The passage you cite in 1John was to refute ""antichrists"" who claimed to have a special anointing and therefore special teachings that could only be found by listening to them. It does not imply that the Bible has a hidden meaning that has to be decrypted by the Holy Spirit. The Bible means what it says.

Reply: Who says that 1 John 2:27 doesn't mean what is says, you? If you believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God, you don't add your own understanding to it, no where in that passage does it apply that scripture exclusively to the agnostics of the time it was written, Bob it means what is says! You don't believe that the Holy Spirit is the testifier of Jesus Christ? That's what is says Bob!

An unbeliever can learn the Bible and understand what it means. But an unbeliever cannot appreciate the significance of it without a special work of grace. ""You shall not steal"" means what it says; you do not have to be an anointed prophet to figure it out.

Reply: Would you like to present a scripture that makes the claim that an unbeliever can understand the Bible? I can't think of any. I already quoted the teachings of Jesus "I thank you father that you have hid your truth from those who are wise in this world' Isaiah says "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." They don't need to understand "You shall not steal" it is already written on their hearts, they know it is wrong.

I defend the position that the Bible IS the Word of God; not that it becomes the word of God when the Holy Spirit tells readers what it means. The later position that of neo-orthodoxy.

Reply: If you truly believe that the Bible IS the Word of God, then you should worship a book, the scriptures clearly say that "The Word is God". What's up with this "neo-orthodoxy" comment? Labeling people together who are as different as night and day is not wise. I defend John 1:1, Jesus is the Word, not a book, yet reading the book, if the Lord has mercy on you, will become alive and bring forward the life of Christ in a believer.

You misuse the passage about ""the letter kills."" The passage is not suggesting that the Bible study kills people. Paul was discussing the Jews who accepted the Old Testament but refused to come to the Christ who was spoken of in the Scriptures.

JOH 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;

JOH 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

Reply: I never said that Bible study kills people, I said that the letter kills but the spirit gives life. The scriptures show that teaching is a gift of the Spirit, in Corinthians. A person with this gift does not operate according to their own fleshly desires, but is lead by the Spirit of God rather than the letter of the word, yet the Spirit of God never conflicts with that which is written; but it certainly does conflict with the vain philosophy of "hermenutical exegesis". I find it interesting that you didn't "exegete" what does "the letter kills" mean?

You're words:

That the Scriptures bear witness to Jesus in whom we must believe does not kill people. Unbelief does.

Yes the gospel is the power of God to salvation to all who believe. God uses means. The preaching of Christ is the means God uses to convict people of sin and lead them to the truth. That any arrive there is fully a work of God''s grace.

Without perhaps being aware of it, I am afraid you have fallen into the neo-orthodox position on Scripture. I am sure you do not intend to undermine the meaning of the Bible; but your position results in that.

My position is that the Bible means what it says; but we need a work of the Holy Spirit to accept the offense of the cross and be converted.

In Christ,

Bob DeWaay

Well thank you Bob!

I leave you with this question:

Where does wisdom come from?

Just a scripture I know you don't understand.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isa 28:13 av)

Sincerely, Thanks really!

Robert Begnaud